Good discussion, as always, though I wanted to offer a counterpoint to your discussion about Gavin's flavour text.
I find Gavin's approach to text to be pretty digestable. I dislike being told exactly what to say. I want to find my own words. More verbose methods of communication feel like I'm supposed to read the text outloud, which I often find frustrating. At the same time, I can see your point, and I agree that a lot of the bullet point work needs updating.
Yeah, getting told what to say feels frustrating when it’s not your style or when the information is out of date. That’s why I like the terse and evocative description of the perceptible a lot, you *can* read it straight off the page, or you can absorb and then rephrase it.
My beef with Gavin’s text isn’t that it’s not digestible, rather it’s that it’s not especially easy to pick out all of the stuff for the initial reading. I need to basically read the everything except the bullet points before I start talking and I think that’s an anti pattern.
Ideally I can read a small subset, speak, and then read the rest as the players are asking questions or making plans
Thanks for another great read. We ran it as an introduction adventure to Dolmemwood, and most of it worked quite well (especially Grimmlegridge and Griddlegrim, where the former killed our grimalkin knight, and the latter was stabbed in the back during polite conversation). All the same, we encountered (and had to mitigate) nearly all the problems you mention.
Your discussion on formatting is also spot on. It reminded me that I had to make several attempts to read through Winter’s daughter before I managed to do so successfully. It flowed that bad on initial read-through. Let’s hope more writers start to focus on the actual underlying structure and how it can serve the important functions, and not only on providing an appearance of structured formatting.
> especially Grimmlegridge and Griddlegrim, where the former killed our grimalkin knight, and the latter was stabbed in the back during polite conversation
Woah! Down to elaborate? I’d love to hear the story
Sure! If I remember correctly, to gain passage, the knight challenged Grimmlegridge to a duel. He was thrown into the wall of the tower and died instantly, and his body was dragged past his friends and into the wood, blood trail in the snow and everything. The remaining party conversed quite civilised with Griddlegrim, who offered passage if they ate a mushroom from his pouch (which one character agreed to do), but another party member managed to slip unnoticed through a window during the talking and came up behind the goblin and ran him through with his dagger. I was a bit surprised by the sudden violence, but not as surprised as the players when they tip toed up the stirs, weapons drawn, only to encounter a wedding feast in full motion and an invitation to take a seat at the table.
I thought the overall plot was good, also most of the characters. I ended up pruning away a lot of the red herrings though, to help the players focus on the connected leads.
I really enjoyed this, especially considering that I finished running this module a week ago.
We play online and it was the introductory quest for a full Dolmenwood campaign. We were using it to sort of test the system out and see whether we were going to enjoy it. Which we did.
I share a lot of your concerns, though some of them are notified by the fact that I have a tendency to wing things as a GM and use a book as a guideline.
I probably would not recommend this adventure to someone being a GM for the first time there's a lot of peculiarities to it.
I will recommend, as I always do that you give at least one party member a different objective/hook than the rest because it leads to some really interesting stuff.
For my entire group except for one player I gave them the, go get this ring bring it back and I'll give you 5000 gold hook. I largely chose this because much of the group is coming from fifth edition where you get experience for milestones and I wanted them to learn early on that you get experience for treasure.
But for one player, I gave them the visions of princess snowfall at dusk and the way that played out at the table was fantastic.
I'm preparing to run it, but my view of the module is less negative.
Regarding area 3 and the drag marks, I understood them to be a clue for the players to drag a frozen PC up to the sun, and I intend to emphasize this in the mirror room.
Another point of contention for me was the lack of concrete ways for PCs to learn the history, lore etc. of this place and people. That's what makes this adventure work, and as written I didn't see any explicit way for them to learn any of it, so I intend to sprinkle things among the rooms, perhaps in the priest's room and another mural.
I also share the want of more background and detail, but since it's a heavily themed forbidden fae adventure, I believe the vagueness and mystery actually work here.
Since I'll be running it as a one-shot, some of the concerns aren't as pressing.
Slot based encumbrance makes it easier for me to visualise and adjudicate inventory.
All in all, it may be lacking in some places, but the flavor is excellent so the prep is woth it in my view.
A more extreme version of this is Bakto's terrifying cuisine: the premise (a dungeon/ deadly reality cooking show mix, a mighty demon with particular tastes and a secret allergy, the twist: almost all the ingredients are sentient to some degree)
Some of the encounters are awesome, there's an optional rival party of past winners, but as written players have zero knowledge or ways to acquire it, almost no connectivity or meaningful choices, so I changed a lot to make it runnable for me.
> Regarding area 3 and the drag marks, I understood them to be a clue for the players to drag a frozen PC up to the sun, and I intend to emphasize this in the mirror room.
That makes more sense than my idea, though I wonder at the author's intent. The text says "Scratches on the floor (as if a heavy statue was dragged away, towards area 5)." Note the adjective "heavy" and noun "statue". I interpreted "Passing in front: Save vs paralysis or be frozen still." as stuck in a position like when playing freeze tag; they're still flesh and bone, they just can't move. I think an alternative interpretation imagines the character becoming ice (literally freezing) or becoming stone, but it's not clear to me.
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> Another point of contention for me was the lack of concrete ways for PCs to learn the history, lore etc. of this place and people. That's what makes this adventure work, and as written I didn't see any explicit way for them to learn any of it, so I intend to sprinkle things among the rooms, perhaps in the priest's room and another mural.
I think that's a great idea
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> Since I'll be running it as a one-shot, some of the concerns aren't as pressing.
Yeah - I had a note in the original draft of the review's conclusion that I thought this was designed as a one shot or convention game (it's the right length). In that context, the ludicrous amount of treasure doesn't matter at all; same with never having to explain how one restores a painting.
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> All in all, it may be lacking in some places, but the flavor is excellent so the prep is woth it in my view.
The flavor is great, and there aren't a ton of *tonally similar* modules, so I think it's a strong entry in the fairy/whimsy niche (alongside blackapple brugh and brandonsford)
Good discussion, as always, though I wanted to offer a counterpoint to your discussion about Gavin's flavour text.
I find Gavin's approach to text to be pretty digestable. I dislike being told exactly what to say. I want to find my own words. More verbose methods of communication feel like I'm supposed to read the text outloud, which I often find frustrating. At the same time, I can see your point, and I agree that a lot of the bullet point work needs updating.
Yeah, getting told what to say feels frustrating when it’s not your style or when the information is out of date. That’s why I like the terse and evocative description of the perceptible a lot, you *can* read it straight off the page, or you can absorb and then rephrase it.
My beef with Gavin’s text isn’t that it’s not digestible, rather it’s that it’s not especially easy to pick out all of the stuff for the initial reading. I need to basically read the everything except the bullet points before I start talking and I think that’s an anti pattern.
Ideally I can read a small subset, speak, and then read the rest as the players are asking questions or making plans
Thanks for another great read. We ran it as an introduction adventure to Dolmemwood, and most of it worked quite well (especially Grimmlegridge and Griddlegrim, where the former killed our grimalkin knight, and the latter was stabbed in the back during polite conversation). All the same, we encountered (and had to mitigate) nearly all the problems you mention.
Your discussion on formatting is also spot on. It reminded me that I had to make several attempts to read through Winter’s daughter before I managed to do so successfully. It flowed that bad on initial read-through. Let’s hope more writers start to focus on the actual underlying structure and how it can serve the important functions, and not only on providing an appearance of structured formatting.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed :D
> especially Grimmlegridge and Griddlegrim, where the former killed our grimalkin knight, and the latter was stabbed in the back during polite conversation
Woah! Down to elaborate? I’d love to hear the story
Sure! If I remember correctly, to gain passage, the knight challenged Grimmlegridge to a duel. He was thrown into the wall of the tower and died instantly, and his body was dragged past his friends and into the wood, blood trail in the snow and everything. The remaining party conversed quite civilised with Griddlegrim, who offered passage if they ate a mushroom from his pouch (which one character agreed to do), but another party member managed to slip unnoticed through a window during the talking and came up behind the goblin and ran him through with his dagger. I was a bit surprised by the sudden violence, but not as surprised as the players when they tip toed up the stirs, weapons drawn, only to encounter a wedding feast in full motion and an invitation to take a seat at the table.
I thought the overall plot was good, also most of the characters. I ended up pruning away a lot of the red herrings though, to help the players focus on the connected leads.
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing ♥️
I really enjoyed this, especially considering that I finished running this module a week ago.
We play online and it was the introductory quest for a full Dolmenwood campaign. We were using it to sort of test the system out and see whether we were going to enjoy it. Which we did.
I share a lot of your concerns, though some of them are notified by the fact that I have a tendency to wing things as a GM and use a book as a guideline.
I probably would not recommend this adventure to someone being a GM for the first time there's a lot of peculiarities to it.
I will recommend, as I always do that you give at least one party member a different objective/hook than the rest because it leads to some really interesting stuff.
For my entire group except for one player I gave them the, go get this ring bring it back and I'll give you 5000 gold hook. I largely chose this because much of the group is coming from fifth edition where you get experience for milestones and I wanted them to learn early on that you get experience for treasure.
But for one player, I gave them the visions of princess snowfall at dusk and the way that played out at the table was fantastic.
Hey Mylon, thanks for stopping by!
Glad to hear y’all’s session went well! I’m definitely excited to get the physical dolmenwood package
The separate hooks for different players idea is great; I’ll have to steal that
I'm preparing to run it, but my view of the module is less negative.
Regarding area 3 and the drag marks, I understood them to be a clue for the players to drag a frozen PC up to the sun, and I intend to emphasize this in the mirror room.
Another point of contention for me was the lack of concrete ways for PCs to learn the history, lore etc. of this place and people. That's what makes this adventure work, and as written I didn't see any explicit way for them to learn any of it, so I intend to sprinkle things among the rooms, perhaps in the priest's room and another mural.
I also share the want of more background and detail, but since it's a heavily themed forbidden fae adventure, I believe the vagueness and mystery actually work here.
Since I'll be running it as a one-shot, some of the concerns aren't as pressing.
Slot based encumbrance makes it easier for me to visualise and adjudicate inventory.
All in all, it may be lacking in some places, but the flavor is excellent so the prep is woth it in my view.
A more extreme version of this is Bakto's terrifying cuisine: the premise (a dungeon/ deadly reality cooking show mix, a mighty demon with particular tastes and a secret allergy, the twist: almost all the ingredients are sentient to some degree)
Some of the encounters are awesome, there's an optional rival party of past winners, but as written players have zero knowledge or ways to acquire it, almost no connectivity or meaningful choices, so I changed a lot to make it runnable for me.
> Regarding area 3 and the drag marks, I understood them to be a clue for the players to drag a frozen PC up to the sun, and I intend to emphasize this in the mirror room.
That makes more sense than my idea, though I wonder at the author's intent. The text says "Scratches on the floor (as if a heavy statue was dragged away, towards area 5)." Note the adjective "heavy" and noun "statue". I interpreted "Passing in front: Save vs paralysis or be frozen still." as stuck in a position like when playing freeze tag; they're still flesh and bone, they just can't move. I think an alternative interpretation imagines the character becoming ice (literally freezing) or becoming stone, but it's not clear to me.
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> Another point of contention for me was the lack of concrete ways for PCs to learn the history, lore etc. of this place and people. That's what makes this adventure work, and as written I didn't see any explicit way for them to learn any of it, so I intend to sprinkle things among the rooms, perhaps in the priest's room and another mural.
I think that's a great idea
----------
> Since I'll be running it as a one-shot, some of the concerns aren't as pressing.
Yeah - I had a note in the original draft of the review's conclusion that I thought this was designed as a one shot or convention game (it's the right length). In that context, the ludicrous amount of treasure doesn't matter at all; same with never having to explain how one restores a painting.
----------
> All in all, it may be lacking in some places, but the flavor is excellent so the prep is woth it in my view.
The flavor is great, and there aren't a ton of *tonally similar* modules, so I think it's a strong entry in the fairy/whimsy niche (alongside blackapple brugh and brandonsford)
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> Bakto's terrifying cuisine
I'll have to give this a read!